Revisions: The Onset of Doubt

[jpskewedthrone]

Revisions, revisions, revisions. I've made it through Part I of the book (called "Colin" for those who are interested in teases), which gets me to page 275 out of 650 approximately.

And the doubt has set in.

This is something that always happens during the revision process, at least for me. At some point, I start questioning what I'm doing. In particular, I start questioning whether I'm doing enough. I mean, I'm trying to make changes that someone else has suggested, and some of those suggestions aren't necessarily changes that I feel are absolutely necessary. I don't disagree with them, but . . . What this does though is make me doubt what I've done. Am I adding enough of the worldbuilding that my editor wants? Obviously, I didn't feel it was crucial to the story or it would be in there already, but my editor feels differently. So I add a little bit there, a sentence here, a touch of world color there . . . and now I'm far enough into the book to begin to wonder if perhaps I should have done a little more. Maybe I should go back to this scene and put in some more, or that scene, or the scene over there.

I hate the doubt. Because I want the book to be the best that it can be, but I don't want it to contain gobs and gobs of fluff. I've seen and read quite a few books out there where I think there's a lot of fluff (bloat is what I call it, really) and I don't want my books to have that. Ever.

But I also know that one of the criticisms of my previous books, in particular The Vacant Throne, was that readers wanted to know more about the cities, more about the world.

So, at this natural stopping point in the book, I'm sitting back and asking myself what more I can add and where, and if at some point I'm going to go overboard and bring in the bloat.

And also, I need to make significant changes in the first chapter of Part II (called "Shavaeran") so perhaps *cough cough* I'm procrastinating just a bit.

Comments

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

Joshua, thank you for posting this. I'm going through a major doubt-fest myself over here and it helps just a little to know I'm not alone. Good luck avoiding the bloat. That's one thing I always struggle with.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I went to check out your chapter 2 up on OWW and I didn't see anything posted there anymore. Thanks for your crit of my stuff BTW. Are you going to post anything more over there? (So I know whether I should check shortly.)

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I hope it helped.

I took mine down to sort of regroup. I found it increasingly hard to decide what changes to make without more of a clear path to follow, ie. somebody tells me to cut something out unless it's relevant, but I don't know yet if it will become relevant because I'm still writing. You know what I mean? So I don't know how 'shortly' I will post again, but I will let you know.

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

I did and I will, thank you.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Be careful with reviews. Just because someone says it needs to be "fixed" in some way doesn't mean you have to agree. And as for the relevant issue . . . that's why I suggest people finish the novel FIRST, so that they know what's relevant and what's not when they go back to do the revision. I certainly don't know what's relevant and not on my first draft.

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much the plan right now. My initial intent with posting at all in the first place was to get a feel for the premise and how random people would perceive it. I have that now, so I'm best served completing the first draft then set about revising in depth.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm still there. I don't post much, but every now and then I review. Right now I'm doing the crit marathon. For "fun." *grin*

[antonstrout.livejournal.com]

Hey, at least you're doubting if you're giving too much info... that can always be peared down by your editor.

I was doubting book three of my series when I turned it in at 84,000 words and I was right. I spent the past month killing about a third of the book and rewriting it up to about 90,000... my head is still ringing from pounding it on mah desk over and over...

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Ah, but the book is in now, correct? And that's the main thing.

[beth-bernobich.livejournal.com]

I'm in the doubt stage, myself. The questions I have are different, because the series isn't out yet, but the feeling is pretty much the same, I would guess.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sure it's the same. I'm doing the same thing I did when I revised before I'd sold any of my novels.

[celestinenox]

Same here as with others, in that stage myself, good to know I'm not alone.

Seems to me that sometimes as writers, we do tend to forget that the readers don't know everything we know. Because we know all the secrets histories and what this touch or glance, or this symbol all mean, we forget to spell it out a little more clearly for the reader, so they at least have a shot of guessing what's going on.

Working with a scene right now where what the character is talking about cannot and should not be said aloud, and I thought I'd done well-enough at hinting that the reader could at least guess. Instead, the two pre-edits readers are both very confused, one of them has no clue what's going on, and the other talked themselves out of it because they felt too much of what I'd done earlier in the story indicated something different. So, it's back to the drawing board for me.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I think my main problem is that I don't include some stuff because it isn't relevant to the CURRENT story. However, thinking in terms of series it might be important LATER ON, in the sequels. One of the things I didn't add much of to the book is intended to be a series in its own right. (I added more stuff about that today.) I think part of me doesn't want to add that in because if I put in specifics now, then I have to STICK to those details when I get to that series.

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post. It helps to know that published authors go through doubts, too.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Bwahahahahaha! Oh, published authors have even MORE to doubt about, trust me.

[will-couvillier.livejournal.com]

I've finished the trilogy, wrapped it up on Friday, actually. And yes, the one thing that left me dissatisfied was the shallow worldbuilding. I loved the characters, the concept, loved the closing-of-the-circle wrap-up, but man did I want to see more of the color, the world this was set in. This world HAS to be bigger than a few cities and a destroyed island nation. Are there no trade routes inland? No strange-speaking lost vagrants from moutainous empires? No unusual technology use that baffles the magical mind? I bet there is - somewhere. And I plan to get any new book in this world to see it!

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, it is bigger. I did say there was an Empire across the mountains that has suddenly and strangely gone silent (I know what's happening there), and I mentioned the southern lands and trading with them . . . but not much, because none of it was important to this particular story. Plus, I'm restricted by Varis' viewpoint.

But I'm glad you're interested in more of the world and willing to check them out when they hit the shelves!

[will-couvillier.livejournal.com]

Oh, fer sure I'm interested! Just cause I was a little disappointed with how little we saw of the world doesn't mean that I wasn't pulled into the story, kept in the story, and very satisfied with the wrap. It was all great stuff. The worldbuilding was a victim of first person narrative, much like how the flashback viewpoint was with the condensed font, which I'm sure can be a challenge for any writer - I know I try to avoid this myself in my stories.

Still, I hope to see more. More of the world, more intrigue, more darkness to be overcome. And perhaps, again, more of our good Varis and her elite enforcers. So be sure I'll get the new books when out. (Pst! I spotted a typo in one of the paperbacks that threw me totally into Midkemia - one place they mispelled Tomus as Tomas.)

--Will

[nerinedorman.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so know what you're going through. My editor just got back to me last night. I want to cry. She's suggested some great changes but I'm scared I'm going to compromise the story with someone else's vision.

Then again, she does know best.

*sigh*

And she was right about the loose ends.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

The big thing to remember is that the editor is trying to help YOU make the novel better, not make the novel their own vision. So take the suggestions they gave you and figure how to make those changes (if you agree with them) in a way that fits your vision. That's what I do. And occasionally there's something that they want that I can't figure out how to change and make it my story, and so I don't change it. I haven't had a problem with those things I refused to change with my editor yet.

[beth-bernobich.livejournal.com]

What He Said.

I agreed with almost all the changes my editor suggested for my first novel, but a few rang false. However, I understood what her concerns were, and suggested a different approach for those. She loved my counter-suggestions, and we were both happy.

[vcmorris.livejournal.com]

With "The Vacant Throne" still fresh in my mind, what I was left still wondering about was the gendering of the Thrones and how that came about. Was that explained and maybe I just missed it? I also wanted some sort of more serious acknowledgement in regards to the relationship between Varis and William and its future.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Um . . . not, the gendering of the thrones wasn't explained or hinted at. It just kind of . . . happened. Because of who touched the throne first. So one guy touched one throne and that became the "male" throne and a woman touched the other and that became the "female" throne . . . but none of that came up anywhere in the story. Varis was a little more concerned with . . . well, survival. *grin*

Now, the relationship with Varis and William . . . THAT I purposefully left ambiguous at the end. I mean, I do hope to return to Varis again in the future. (I have at least 3 other novels in mind for Varis.)

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I didn't think it was creepy. I smiled actually. *grin*

But don't worry. I don't think I'm going to come remotely close to "bloat" with the details. I'm trying to put in the details on the races and cultures and stuff that's relevant for the sequels and the other novels I have planned in this world (and of course what's relevant for THIS book).

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

I hate revisions, too, because I find I'm always second-guessing myself. And often, I do cut out things that make people say, "shouldn't there be more information on such-and-such?" Yeah. Cut it out because *other* people said...

I agree with the Wicked Nurse of the West up there ;-). When I started reading The Skewed Throne, I'll admit, I had some, "What's going on here?" moments. But I continued, because I was confident that you eventually would tell me, which you did. If you start going into long descriptions about how this and such a culture evolved to such-and-so, well, it wouldn't be *you*.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

It certainly wouldn't be me. I have such problems reading that in other books that I vowed a long time ago to never, ever do that myself. I'm hoping I can stick to that.

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

If you did that, we would be forced to change your name to match that of certain other authors, living or dead, whose books are useful to place on dining room chairs when small nieces and nephews visit.

[talithakalago.livejournal.com]

When it comes to making changes other people suggest, for me its always about where they're coming from. Anything my agent suggests, unless I have a really good reason not to make the change, gets done.

Unless people don't understand something though, if they're just friends and family, I just ignore them unless they've found a plot hole or something else. :P

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

I often ignore them. You can waste a lot of energy trying to please everyone. I don't have an agent, but certainly if an editor says, "I like this story, but..." I make the changes s/he suggests. Never yet had an editor who wanted to buy something who didn't "get" the story, so those changes are never story-killers.

[talithakalago.livejournal.com]

If someone doesn't understand something though, they don't understand it. I usually try and clarify anything that confuses people unless they are clearly on crack.

EG: When I refered to a lion like creature as 'feline' and someone said 'wouldn't that make it a cat? lol'.

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, there's that. But sometimes, people have particular issues. I mean, I have a friend who enjoys going to science fiction movies, but not reading SF. When you hear him describe the movies, you understand why. He misses large chunks of what's going on simply because he can't adjust his mindset.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I consider everything that anyone says about the books . . . but I don't always follow up on it. However, when my EDITOR says she thinks such and such needs to changed or fixed . . .

I have said that I couldn't change something to my editor before though, and she's been all right with that.

[talithakalago.livejournal.com]

The only changes I've disagreed with editors about was nouns. Normally I'll change anything they ask me to, but I dig in my heels when it comes to changing things like flintlock to gun. I'm not big on dumbing down my words, particularly when they're being dumbed down to words with completely different meanings. (Flintlock and gun are bad examples, but brontide is not thunder, etc.)

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I have once or twice, I think. Some changes would destroy the whole meaning of the story. Or would require a character do do something so *out* of character that you would wonder why you'd created him that way in the first place.

And ditto on things like "flintlock" to "gun." "Gun" is a catchall term that could describe any firearm made within the last 600 years or so. "Flintlock" denotes a specific level of technology/time period. (I actually have a character misidentify a relatively modern rifle with percussion cap firing as a "flintlock," and it's used to illustrate a point, that being that she is hopelessly technologically outclassed.

[talithakalago.livejournal.com]

Plus there is a level of social expectation. People have an idea of what some things are and where they are from. If you call a weapon a katana you're looking at an asian culture, sword would, by many people, be associated with european/UK cultures.

I once wanted to use an obscure middle eastern bladed weapon in a story and was asked to change it to sword. I ended up describing it as 'sword like', but it made my teeth hurt.

[mercwriter.livejournal.com]

I'm always in doubt stages about something or other. *cough*

But I think at least you can trim things down if you add to much, right? Healthy doubt seems normal.

Just until it becomes a possessive, tentacled pseudo-shoggoth from the depths of space here to suck out your brain and see you never get the novel done. ;)

Hopefully you can find a good balance with finding the balance of fleshing out details without compromising your idea of how the novel should be. :)

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I'm searching for that happy medium now. I think I've got it on the first part of the book anyway. I added some more things in at various points today, and I think I'm now happy with everything in that first part.

Now on the second.