Writing: Using Myths to Kick-Off a Fantasy World

[jpskewedthrone]

This was the title of the one of the panels I was on at Worldcon and I have to say that I'm not 100% certain why I was put on the panel. David Coe (davidbcoe) wondered the same thing when he introduced himself as one of the members of the panel, and what he said pretty much summed it up for me: I don't use myths to create my world, I create the world on my own.

Don't get me wrong, myths can be a great source for jump-starting a novel, and there are plenty of great novels out there that began in just this way. One of the all-time classics that was brought up on the panel was the Arthur myth. We spent a bit of time discussing whether or not we really need another novel based on the Arthur myth, and what it boiled down to was that any myth can be used over and over and over again as long as the author does something new with it, or has something unique about their writing that makes the myth seem new. So the short answer is yes. (The general rumbling unvoiced agreement amongst everyone on the panel was no, we don't.)

There was also some discussion of what we actually mean by "myth" and the fact that it can so easily be confused with "religion" and how you have to be careful when using a religion's mythos when the people that practice that religion--perhaps fervently--as still around. Obviously, you don't want to offend the people that practice that religion, but at the same time shouldn't you have the right to play around with their mythos in a novel, especially an obvious fantasy without fear of offending someone? (Look at C.S. Lewis.) I have plains people in my new novel and I spent a good deal of time stressing over whether or not I'd be offending Native Americans if I used something as simple as a peace pipe. I didn't base the culture of these plains people on any of the Native American group out there--in fact, went out of my way NOT to read about their beliefs so that whatever I made up on my own would in fact be my own--but when it really comes down to it, the religion of a people that live on the plains is going to have some similarities to real world cultures based on plains no matter how much I play with them. This is because the world itself--the plains--is part of what shapes the culture and that culture's mythos.

And that's more or less what I had to say about the topic of the panel at Worldcon: I don't think myths kick off fantasy worlds and are used for the basis of cultures. It's done in reverse. I think the world itself shapes the myths and forms the cultures. You have to look at where people are living and what those people have to deal with on a daily basis--have to seriously THINK about this--and once you've done that, THEN you can start to see the shape and form that the culture's myths and religion create. In my books, I have a race of people called the Chorl who live on volcanic islands in the middle of the ocean, sort of like Hawaii. Their culture and their myths are based mostly on the ocean, because most of their food sources come from the ocean. It controls them to some extent, so it seems logical that they'd form a religion around that. Similarly, they have some beliefs based on the violence and unpredictability of the volcanoes on the islands. These are obvious factors that would form their myths.

However, in a fantasy world, you also have to take into the account how the magic of the world will affect their myths and religions as well. The Chorl were affected by the passage of the White Fire, one of the magical forces in my books, and this White Fire's presence significantly altered their myth and religion when it first passed through. There was no explanation for it. It simply appeared, passed over them, and then moved on. And it was pervasive--everyone at the time experienced it. They'd need to come up with an explanation for what this was, and they did, and this shaped their mythos and their beliefs. Similarly, the Throne of Amenkor is a rather significant source of magic for the city of Amenkor, and while it isn't as spectacular as the White Fire--they know where the throne came from; know that it was created--it still has its own presence and certain beliefs/myths have arisen around it.

In the end, all I'm rambling on about here is how I think about the creation of my myths and religions for my books, and my surprise at the panel topic and how it played out. I've never used any of our own real world myths or religions as a basis for a fantasy novel. I let the world of the fantasy novel create the myths themselves. I mean, what came first, the world or the myths we use to explain to ourselves how that world works? Shouldn't creating your own fantasy world follow the same path?

Comments

[sistercoyote.livejournal.com]

One of the things I was struggling with in my own (as yet unfinished) novel was religion/myths and how they worked within the eminently human power structures of the world: does "the church" have a lot of power? If so, where does it fit within the structures of a Parliamentary Monarchy? If not, what are its roles within society?

Finally, I had to sit down and write up my predominant culture's creation myth. As it turns out, the creation of life was the afterthought of a very hands-off divine presence, and so the church has a likewise "hands-off" approach to the world.

So I guess this is a sort-of long-winded way of agreeing with you.

[vcmorris.livejournal.com]

If they can't grasp the idea that it's fantasy, therefore fiction, f-em.
The majority of what I've written is historically based fiction, which is completely different than fantasy. In that case I research the hell out of whatever it is I want to include in my story. (ie - the history of the coat hanger comes to mind! Invented by Thomas Jefferson, btw)
Blood Of The Scarecrow is an odd combination of early American history, modern paganism as practiced by a small group of people (and frankly, every Pagan I've ever met does things slightly different than his or her fellow Pagan) and the supernatural realms of magic, ghosts and reincarnation.
I made it up people but what needed to be historical, is.
I really don't worry too much about offending people because no matter what you write, you'll piss off at least one person no matter how hard you try to do otherwise. I write what rings true for me and suits the story.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what I end up doing. I write and things sort of get "found out" while I'm writing and then I have to take a moment to figure out how they all work together and then WHALLA! I have a working book. *grin*

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

I would have felt exactly the same.

[ceibhfhionn22.livejournal.com]

I agree that the places people live affect what they have for religion and myths. I think that if there is a similarity in the real world it is probably coincidental, or the author has drawn on things that they weren't thinking about at the time but came from the subconscious without, well, conscious control.

I wrote a short story where one of the characters was Dracula. (So cliche and overused.) But Dracula ended up having aspects of The Phantom from Andrew Lloyd Weber's movie version of The Phantom of the Opera. I had the song running through my head while I was writing, and that influenced the traits of Dracula, oddly enough.

I think that fantasy worlds would do the same. The myth would build itself on the traits of the area in which the people who created the myth live.

I don't know if anyone can follow that, but it makes sense in my mind.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I followed it.

[gumnut.livejournal.com]

This doesn't solely relate to this post but I just had to say ut at some point.

Thanks so much for writing such an interesting journal. Your posts make me think and are nicely informative. I particularly love your author intros. And this post is very thought provoking.

Thankyou for taking the time to write for us :D

Nutty
(who would say more, but is typing one handed at an awkward angle)

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Glad to know it's not just me blathering endlessly into the ether. *grin*

[sylvia-rachel.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I went to a panel at Ad Astra this year called "Fantasy and Mythology", and several of the panellists expressed the same mild confusion about what exactly they were doing on the panel, and the discussion covered pretty much the same ground as you describe (although I don't recall a lot of discussion of Arthur, and there was quite a bit about Neil Gaiman -- American Gods and Anansi Boys specifically).

I'm never sure where I stand on Arthuriana. I suppose probably we don't need any more of it, but some of it is just so wonderful and re-readable...

My worldbuilding has been heavy on the mythology -- Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Romano-Celtic -- but that's because, as you know, my setting is actually a different flavour of the real world. It's not mythology really, though, it's religion: I thought it would be fun to speculate on what would happen to Western Europe if Christianity never really took off.

I'd like to think that if I set out to actually invent a whole 'nother world, I'd be able to go a bit further afield from my source material. On the other hand, when one invents a world that has similar natural phenomena to ours (sun and moon and stars and rain and hail and volcanoes and oceans, frex) the metaphysical explanations and justifications one's characters concoct for the said phenomena will necessarily end up having something in common with the explanations concocted by actual people in the real world.

And if that isn't a sterling example of circular reasoning, I don't know what is :^P

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

OOOOOO! Look at the pretty circle!!!!!

[sylvia-rachel.livejournal.com]

Oy. I forgot I was talking to a math professor. :P

[jlawrenceperry.livejournal.com]

Do any of your characters ever purchase severely undervalued crackle? :P

Your interview will play this weekend. I promise.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

No undervalued crackle purchases to date yet.

And I believe it's Monday and do I see an interview posted? NO! *grin* No worries though. Whenever you get around to it.

[jlawrenceperry.livejournal.com]

:D yeah, well... you know what promises are worth, don't you? It has been one busy weekend.

[davidkeck.livejournal.com]

(greetings from the ether)

I'm sure we've all read enough that we are fluidly stealing from a thousand myths with every keystroke.

I like grubbing around below the big myth level, hunting for the weird details of other times and faiths and places -- the little things might trick folks into believing they're really somewhere else. (Playing the willing suspension game).

(Another world should be at least as full of such surprises as another country, I think).

~D

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

We are of course stealing from thousands of myths when we write whether we realize it consciously or not. I guess I'm just saying that I don't sit down and say, "I'm going to write an Aztec-like culture today because their creation myth is so cool." It's more like, "I have people living in the high elevations of these mountains," and in the end they are sort of Inca-like.

[davidkeck.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm with you.

And I think that lifting an entire mythology might be better suited to either the true historical fantasy (where every element of the culture is reproduced with as much veracity as the author can manage) or modern fantasies (where one wants to avoid the Lady in the Water effect of invented mythology).

[steve-buchheit.livejournal.com]

I think knowing the current mythos of particular regions with the underlying value and perspective positions that birth that mythos certainly helps creating new fantastic myths. Even studying the structure of fairy tales has been helpful with my own stories if I keep with a retelling of old tales, riffing on the stories, or creating new ones out of whole cloth.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Oh, if I need to get a particular voice for something (a fairy-tale voice or a creation myth voice or whathaveyou) then I'll go read a bunch of that kind of material just so I can get my head into the right mind-space to make my attempt to sound "right".