Titles

[jpskewedthrone]

Most of the time, I discover the title of a novel while writing it. Occasionally, it comes to me ahead of time. But I've discovered that in the publishing industry they generally like to have titles for the contracts well ahead of time. Since I spent some time today working on the one paragraph summary of the sequels to Well of Sorrows, I had to ponder titles. I suggested a title for the second book in my previous post . . . and it was generally shot down. I still like it. However, I'm caving to popular opinion and spent some time thinking of other possibilities.

How do the following series title strike you?

Book 1: Well of Sorrows
Book 2: Leaves of Fire
Book 3: Flames of Heaven

Comments

[anghara.livejournal.com]

You fanning one of mine into life (I wrote "Embers of Heaven"...[grin])

[ebenstone.livejournal.com]

I'm an unpublished schlub, so I don't know how much help I'm going to be. I'm big on titling motifs...and you've got one with books 2 & 3 (Fire/Flames) but book 1 seems like the one that does not belong as far as titles go. Sorrow is a powerful word though and if you could build on that, it might make a little more sense for me. Now I have NO idea what any of the books are about, so I'm just talking out me butt! Though I the more I "say" it, the more I like Flames of Heaven(though Robert Jordan had The Fires of Heaven...a bit too close perhaps). Stick with sorrow, there's lots of synonyms for sorrow, I bet you could make it work...

Then again, you've got sales...I've got an impressive list of rejections!

[miintikwa.livejournal.com]

I like "Leaves of Fire," but hasn't "Flames of Heaven" been done before, recently?

(Ok, perhaps I am remembering "Embers" now that I am reading other comments. :D)

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

I like them.

Definitely #1 & 3.

#2 sounds good aurally, I think, but the image might not be strong enough compared to the other two.

[beth-bernobich.livejournal.com]

I had the same reaction as Kate.

[mnfaure.livejournal.com]

ditto

Feedback

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

If those were mailed to me as review copies, I would be intrigued enough to read the blurbs, and probably the first page or few to see if the story hooks me. That's promising since I get a lot of review copies.

[janni.livejournal.com]

I like Well of Sorrows okay, don't like the other two at all. But I'm only one reader!

[janni.livejournal.com]

lnhammer says he likes the first two, but that together they make him want the third to have something to do with earth or air.

[difrancis.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I like connected titles. Books 2 and 3 are connected, but for me, Well of Sorrows resonates better to me. I like the emotional connection with Sorrows and would like to see you follow through on that.

There are my couple of cents.

Di

[elizabeth-welsh.livejournal.com]

I adore the title of the third book, but am not crazy about the second. I actually like Autumnal Tree better. However, have you considered a merger of the two -- The Autumnal Fire? Whatever you choose, it must appeal to you first. At least in my experience, it is far easier to make someone love your stories when you first love them yourself. I think that is true of titles as well.

Whatever the title, I am certain it will be a phenominal book. This is guaranteed because behind the word "by" will be your name.

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

You know me, and how much I hate modern fantasy titling conventions. :-)

"Well of Sorrows" is interesting to me. It implies a good deal of story.

"Leaves of Fire" is pretty good, but I don't think it has quite the right rhythm. "Leaves of Flame" has a better rhythm, but I think the image overall lacks a certain pizazz that "Well of Sorrows" has in spades.

I think if you want the image of a burning tree, then "THE BURNING TREE" has all you could ask for (or replace "Tree" with the kind of tree, e.g. oak, elm, maple). Literal? Yes. But it raises the question of "Why is the tree burning? Is it burning to ash, or is it like Moses's burning bush? Is it's burning good or bad?"

"Flames of Heaven" is a non-starter for me. It's very naffy-fantasy-title; it's trying too hard.

[stillnotbored.livejournal.com]

This is a hard, hard thing for an outsider to do. Not knowing the plot, the themes or anything about the books is like taking a potshot in the dark.

So...I'm also left wondering why the first book has a different focus than the last two. Even with an overall series to tie them together, my brain wants something more thematic to match the last two with the first.

If you are determined to stick with this naming scheme, could I suggest swapping the last two?

Leaves of Flame and Fires of Heaven sound better to the poet in me. A Fire In Heaven sounds even better, but that breaks the pattern.

Good luck with this. :)

[suelder.livejournal.com]

I like them, especially Leaves of Flame - it's evocative to me :)

Suelder

[jtglover.livejournal.com]

In my humble opinion, 1 & 2 are fine and will attract some readers, with 1 being perhaps a little better, but 3 must not stand. The Robert Jordan parallel is too strong, and I don't think you want people to go "oh, a Robert Jordan clone" when they look at your book on the shelf.

I'm likewise a little frustrated with fantasy naming conventions, but I don't think that's true of the majority of fantasy readers. Many people like having a "fantasy title" to grab onto, both because it's eye-catching in the store and it feels "right" when they're reading. Obviously I don't know how well the story fits the title, but those titles sound like fantasy.

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

I have to weigh in on liking Leaves of Fire, but not sure it's as strong as the other two. I just love the sound of it.
On Flames of Heaven, great title, really great, though I also have the niggling feeling the the back of my mind that something similar has been done recently.
Doesn't mean you can't to it, though.

However, I also know from experience that just because it says one title on the contract doesn't mean it can't be changed.

I like these three, and would have trouble finding them now if you changed them ;-).

[ceibhfhionn22.livejournal.com]

I like them. :)

[sylvia-rachel.livejournal.com]

I like them all individually, but find myself wondering (a) what the connection is, (b) what the books are about, and (c) why 2 and 3 are about fire but 1 is (metaphorically, at least) about water (or, more basically, why 2 and 3 seem to go with each other but not with 1).

I somehow missed the earlier post where you suggested another title for book 2, but someone upthread suggests The Burning Tree, which I really like (while of course having absolutely zero idea how appropriate it might be to the planned or eventual content of the book).

[fireun.livejournal.com]

i like the first. ok, to be fair, i adore the first title. it has an interesting feel to it, and creates curiosity. the second doesnt...flow? at least not to me. the third, as a bookseller, would drive me batty as it is almost exactly the same as the jordan title (flame instead of fire) and i think that would cause reader confusion. just my two cents. i can explain in more detail if you would like. perhaps it would serve as an excellent excuse to get together, since i missed you all last night at Games.

[jeanhuets.livejournal.com]

Well of Sorrows I like. The other two just don't do it for me. (And Autumnal Tree, okay, we've taken care of that one.) Flames of Heaven for the reason that's been pointed out, too familiar. I don't know why but Leaves of Fire sounds flat to me. Burning (whatever kind of) Tree is good and for some reason goes better with Well of Sorrows.

But what really draws my attention in the image you gave is the cages hanging from the tree. Very grisly, especially if this tree is actually going to burn with all these people trapped on it. Maybe play that up in the title? Tree of Anguish? Maybe that sucks more than any of them, I dunno. It definitely connects with Well.

[elizabeth-welsh.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I had a the night to mull it over and I have to say that something difrancis said struck a chord with me. Well of Sorrows is a very emotional name. The others -- not so much. For cover art, perhaps "Tree of Fire" is good, but "Burning Tree" is more active. Niether is very emotional. "Bitter Fire" for example has a similar touch of emotion to it, but since bitter has so many definitions, you still aren't there. Also a well -- a normal civilized thing that usually contains water, leaves one wondering why it isn't "Fire of Devastation" or even "Tree of Rage". The third book also is out of sinc in the thematic sense. "Flames of Heaven" seems contradictory in a way, yet it also lacks the containment of a strong emotion, or the common container. However, it is hard to know if any of these are what you're aiming for, since only you know the content and theme of those books. Your first series had the Something Throne concept - skewed, cracked, vacant. It created continuity.

On the other hand, not all series have those relative names. To pick a famous one with little in common: Fellowship of the Ring, Two Towers, and Return of the King, though all had the leader of "Lord of the Rings" and in most cases they are packaged together in one huge book. My own three are Something Special, Too Much, and New Realities, but you'll know them as a series because they are part of the "Fox Tales Trilogy" (of course that all assumes I ever get them published).

So my next question is "Do you have a common super title?" And then I'd like to know if your last book is meant to be Flames of Heaven as in the place where a god lives or Flames of Heavens as in the sky.

TITLES

[vespican.livejournal.com]

I certainly see nothing wrong with the titles you suggest. Yet as I think back to the "Throne" series, I notice that that one word is common to all three books. Would inclusion of "WELL" or "SORROWS" in all three somehow serve to bind them a little tighter? Just a thought, and certainly not something I seem to follow in my own (so far unpublished) writing. I go from BEYOND THE OCEAN'S EDGE, to SAILING DANGEROUS WATERS, to DARNAHSIAN PIRATES, although I guess there is a common thread of seafaring and other nautical stuff implied.
BTW, finished THE SKEWED THRONE yesterday, and will try to comment more in depth when I have a little free time.
Dave

[mindseas.livejournal.com]

After mulling this over for a while, something came to me as I was driving out to get a pizza for me and Louise: WELL OF SORROWS couples an ordinary object with a spiritual state. To bring the other two titles into line with this pattern, I'd have them be something like: TREE OF JUDGMENT and FIRE OF REDEMPTION, or whatever happens to be the spiritual state at the core of their stories.

[talithakalago.livejournal.com]

Oh man. Normally I'm good with names. My mid-way-through-my-second-draft novel? Still no name. I NEED A NAME! My agent wants to see it last week and... I can't even tell her what it's called.

[nymeria87.livejournal.com]

I second 'Stone's and others' opinion that 'Flames of Heaven' sounds a tad too similar to Jordan's Fires of Heaven. Generally I like Well of Sorrow much better than your titles for book 2 and three, just because it sounds darker. It's been said before, but I'd suggest you work more with either "Well" or "Sorrow", but like the others I have no clue what the books are about so those are just shots out of the blue.

I just talked to my local independent bookstore and had him order your Throne series by the way. I'm looking forward to checking them out :D

[jaxom92.livejournal.com]

I find Leaves of Fire better, but that's just my personal taste. This is especially true with all three having a similar structure: of . Not sure if it's necessary to have a similar structure in titles, but I find it helps tie it all together in a quickly obvious way in the books story. A reader might go "oh, these three are all probably in a trilogy since the titles are all similar."