Education: What's Wrong With Our System, A Response to Post 1

[jpskewedthrone]

Yesterday, I posted a situation a colleague ran into in the current education system and why I felt it was unfair and it got a rather signficant response from the readers out there. At least significant enough that I decided it would be easier to post a general response than to reply to each comment individually. I apologize for this, but since the majority of you had the same questions or concerns or general thoughts on the subject, I thought this would be quicker.

First of all, this happened fairly recently, so I don't know whether there will be additional fallout from this with either the university in question or the instructor. I did bring up the idea of taking the situation to the appropriate upper level administrator (Dean, Provost, whatever) at the university. The instructor in question has at this point decided not to pursue that, or the idea of filing a lawsuit, or filing a complaint with the local teachers union, if there is one. I honestly don't know if there is one. (There is a union at SUNY Oneonta, and if it had been me, I'd probably be pursuing it through them. But this isn't me, so . . .) I think the general thoughts by the instructor are that a lawsuit or anything done by the union would amount to nothing because the administration did not actually say the instructor was fired because of the two evaluations, merely suggested that certain conditions be met (namely work with the mentor and get a 6 or better average) before they would be hired again. I dont personally believe this. I think the entire situation warrants some type of intervention, but I'm also not going to push this instructor to take that step if that's not what they want to do. My general experience is that people have to really want something badn enough in order for them to withstand the pain it will take to get it. I don't think this instructor wants this bad enough. (This is the pursuit of a writing career in a nutshell by the way.)

Oh, the instructorship in question was not tenure-track or even considered an adjunct position I don't believe. I don't know the specific details of the original contract though.

I have to say I'm not surprised in the slightest that this is going on at the K-12 levels as well. I do know that when I first began teaching as an undergraduate during summer courses oh so long ago that the attitude that I see now in college students wasn't present. It's been over the course of the last . . . fifteen years that I've seen this shift in the student's expectations of and from the instructor in the classroom. And I want to say that this is NOT the attitude that you get from ALL of the students; but it has become the attitude of a majority of them. The shift seems to be all about responsibility: the students no longer accept responsibility for their own grades (as some of you pointed out); instead if they are doing badly in a class it's because the teacher can't teach, or the exams are too hard, or whatever. We need to shift the idea of responsibility back onto the student while at the same time making certain that the teacher understands their own responsibility regarding how they teach and how they make the exams and such fair to the student as well. Responsibility in the classroom is a double-edged sword.

There were a couple of comments about the fact that the administration has begun reacting in this way (catering to the students) because they don't wish to be sued and also because most universities and colleges have become profit-oriented (it's become a customer/client relationship). My only comment on this at the moment is . . . I totally agree.

And finally (I think, I'll do a run-through of the comments to see if I missed something later), I have certainly seen a significant rise in "parent involvement" in the student's college career and the instructor's grading. All I can say about this is that most universities and colleges have a policy in place that states that the student is an adult and that all of their grades and such are considered private. Thus, nothing regarding the student's grade or their activities in class can be discussed with anyone other than the student, unless the student has consented to the parent's involvement in some way. So whenever a parent calls or something, I simply say that I can't discuss it with them, they need to get their child to come into my office to discuss it with me personally.

In a related and "good" story regarding education, while I was working at Bloomsburg University in central PA, I failed a student in one of my classes. The student came to my office and cried and begged me to change the grade because they were supposed to graduate. I handed them a box of tissues and told them they should have thought of that before and worked hard to pass my class. They left (the tears were faked BTW, based on how quickly they stopped crying) . . . but I got a call from their department chair (they weren't math majors) who wanted to come speak with me. I said fine and when the department chair showed up I took out my grade book and pointed out that the student had failed to come to class for half of the quizzes and had received nothing more than a 40% on all of the exams, including the final.

The department chair sat back and said, "Oh," then shook my hand and left. I never heard a word about that student again. (Although based on later experience I probably should have checked to see that the grade had not been changed behind my back. This type of thing hadn't happened to or around me yet, so I wasn't aware it could even be done at that point. I was young and inexperienced.)

As for administration changing an instructor's grade at their whim . . . well, let's say I have my own personal experience with this that I'll explain in a future post.

Comments

[wolfette]

I did have one teacher at high school who couldn't - or at least didn't - teach. He was the head of the physics department. In 4th year I had a different teacher and got a Band 1 (0ver 95%) in my "O" level, so along with the four other students who got marks that high, I was transferred to Dr X's class. From getting over 95% in 4th year, we all failed our Highers in 5th year. Dr X was a nicotine addict who had been told he couldn't smoke in the classroom, so he would pop his head round the door at the start of class and hand the kid nearest the door a pile of mimeographed papers, with instructions to pass them out and each of us to copy them into our work books - take any experiments mentioned as done. Then he'd go back into his office and light up.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Yikes, talk about an addiction.

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

I had a parnet come in once to castigate me over the fact that his brilliant son had a D in Pre-Cal honors...(I only had one D and one F (his best buddy) at the time)

Among the reason he gave for it were:
1) His son was a wrestler and all of the ohter students were egg heads and had no extracurricular activities.
2) His son was a wrestler and didn't have time to do all the homework I assigned.
3) I must not be explaining things well if his son didn't understand.
(despite the fact that most of the kids were doing great).

To which I pulled out my PDA and responded:
I have pictures of John sleeping in class. Here look. Here's Thursday, and Friday, and Monday....

The parent never tried that crap on me again. Son pulled the grade up to a B eventually.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's wonderful. I can imagine that someone would sue you for taking pics of their son, but as long as it worked...

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

That was the only use I ever got out of the school issued PDA ;o)

[jjschwabach.livejournal.com]

A beautiful use it was, though.

[mastadge.livejournal.com]

Simple enough: have the students (and their parents, if K-12) sign a syllabus at the start of the course. This documents that the students understand what they're getting into and what will be expected of them, plus you can also slip in things along the lines of: "I understand that photographs may be taken by the teacher or other school employees. These photographs will not be distributed and will be for official use only." Most parents will sign. The very few who have a problem with pictures being taken of their children will get in touch, but those will mostly be the parents who take an interest in their child's education anyway and will be more likely to be on your side in an academic dispute with a problem student.

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

We had a school-wide thing about photos in the student handbook that they signed in the first week of school...

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

It's amazing what some students can do when they realize they have no easy out. At least that's what I find.

But I've certainly had to deal with parent calls and whatnot, and the reasons given are nearly identical to the ones you list. And they wonder why we seem so prepared for them when they call.

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'll bet you do hear the same ones...

That 'too much work' is a comparatively universal whine. In reality, if it actually is a problem, it's a problem caused by student overcommittment, not one single class.

I do wish they would learn to take responsibility.

Then again, I'm sure you do, too...

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

The current philosophy of the students seems to be that they should be learning everything they need to know in class and that no work should need to be done outside of class, when in reality they're supposed to be getting the theory of how everything works in class and then they're supposed to apply it on their own outside of class. I believe the general ratio of time spent on a class is supposed to be "for every one hour spent in class, the student should be spending 2 or 3 hours outside of the class on that subject (doing homework, studying, etc)."

This is why a full load for a semester is 12 credits. This means the student will be spending 12 hours in class and another 24-36 hours outside of class, for what's supposed to be the equivalent of a 40 hour work week on average. Students that take more than 12 credits are asking for a ton of additional work, which is why it's not recommended.

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

Exactly. ;o)

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

when taking an ethics class at Chaminade (in Hawaii) the Marianist brother who was teaching the class was quite specific in attendance affecting our grade. Even being late.

One saturday, I and another classmate who rode in with me were late because we stopped to render aid at an accident, we saw this car Tbone another car with a man, his pregnant wife and 3 kids in the backseat (directed traffic, got the ambulance, gave police our info, everyone ended up okay). We showed up late for class, we had some blood on us, and the discussion that day was obligations vs doing the right thing.

I and my friend both got A's in that class, despite the one tardy.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I certainly make exceptions in extreme cases and such. Someone goes in for surgery and is going to be out for a few weeks, etc. In your case, the class and the subject went together well. (You rarely get such zen moments in mathematics.)

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I was amazed when I read that. I was a department chair at a fairly large southeastern community college for 15 years until I retired a few years ago, and such a thing would never have happened there. First, the state law requires that students attend at least 75% of classes, and we regularly take roll and withdraw or even fail students who exceed their absences. There's no question about it--the state, the college, the department, and the instructors are on the same page.

Second, I never held a disciplinary session like that. My routine was to inform the instructor that students had made charges and ask for the instructor's side of the story. And unless it was an anonymous accusation, I'd first require that the student meet with the instructor and try to find some resolution without my intervention. When students would appear in the offices of the president, vice-president, or dean of students, the response was the same: go back to the instructor, or to the department chair if you feel at risk with the instructor (we did have some cases of verified and ultimately admitted sexual and racial harassment)

Any experienced administrator can recognize those spite evaluations, especially because they're usually so completely different from the other evaluations. I've gotten them myself and expect to do so again.

But I think your story clearly illustrates the one thing my experience shares with your colleague's: no good deed goes unpunished. Almost every time I agreed to bend the rules for a student, that student eventually caused many other problems.

I'm sorry to hear that well-known institutions act that way, but I can tell you that there are some institutions that do not.

ETA: It violates the Federal Privacy Legislation (http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html) for colleges to tell parents anything about students over 18, including attendance, grades, etc. My college enforced this strictly, and parents got the idea that they weren't welcome, even though legally they could discuss the student's grades if the student was present and gave consent. Again, nothing like a law to save your ass.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

There is typically a clause somewhere that says the instructor has the right to fail a student based solely on attendance. I usually don't use that, since I figure this is college and if the student wants to be there and learn the material, they will be; if not, their grade usually suffers (at which point it's their own fault for not coming to class).

But what you point out--that the administration should have recognized that these 2 evaluations were spite evaluations--I totally agree with. It was obvious to me and the instructor, but the administration wasn't interested in that. They wanted numbers and this gave them an excuse to force the instructor to get them.

And yes, I hope that it's clear in these posts that the situations described are not happening at all universities . . . but I think it's occuring at a significant number of them, which is why I decided to post about it. At least I've seen it at the majority of the places I've taught at.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

I love that story. I'm sure we've all got stories like that, but it warms the heart to see justice done.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

My post was in regards to this:

In a related and "good" story regarding education, while I was working at Bloomsburg University in central PA, I failed a student in one of my classes. The student came to my office and cried and begged me to change the grade because they were supposed to graduate. I handed them a box of tissues and told them they should have thought of that before and worked hard to pass my class. They left (the tears were faked BTW, based on how quickly they stopped crying) . . . but I got a call from their department chair (they weren't math majors) who wanted to come speak with me. I said fine and when the department chair showed up I took out my grade book and pointed out that the student had failed to come to class for half of the quizzes and had received nothing more than a 40% on all of the exams, including the final.

The department chair sat back and said, "Oh," then shook my hand and left. I never heard a word about that student again. (Although based on later experience I probably should have checked to see that the grade had not been changed behind my back. This type of thing hadn't happened to or around me yet, so I wasn't aware it could even be done at that point. I was young and inexperienced.)

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I knew which story you were talking about. *grin*

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

Now that's a good department chair ;o)

A friend found out that one of her grades had been changed after she left the district....and that change affected who would be valedictorian.

So on her recommendation, I kept printouts of all my grades.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I keep a folder for each class of all of the grades, the quizzes, the exams, etc. (Not what actual student work, but copies of what I did.) I also keep a record of anything untoward that happened in class, things like someone caught cheating, etc. This is so I can defend myself and my grades somewhere down the road if I have to.

[bearmountain.livejournal.com]

Quote:

..most universities and colleges have become profit-oriented...

End quote.

They always were profit oriented. This is not new. The attitude is new (and it is seen not just in education, but also in the regular job force. More and more "students" that get hired expect to "make the grade" after x amount of time--regardless of actual performance. And if they don't, they blame the manager for their lack of promotion. They complain and often file complaints against the manager.

Being for profit isn't the problem. Lack of responsibility at any level (politics, job, school) and the cultural change is more the problem. I don't know how you change it. It's perplexing to me how it snowballed so badly in the first place.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, profit was always there, but I think it used to be "education with profit" and now all I see is "profit". The education aspect seems to have gotten lost.

But I certainly agree that the lack of responsibility issue is something that's happened throughout the entire culture here. I'm just seeing it most in my workplace, because that's where I am everyday (mostly).

[the-red-i.livejournal.com]

In regards to your story, I remember Dr. Alex mentioning that he didn't have the power or ability to change grades. Apparently students ask him to do that often. Is that power frequently held by other department chairs at other colleges?

-Jeremy

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

I don't think department chairs generally have the power to change grades without the instructor's signature, but usually the Dean or Provost or someone higher up the chain does. I know it happened at one school I've been at where a grade I gave was changed without my permission, but it was done at the higher level (the department chair disagreed with the change as well).

[spcpthook.livejournal.com]

I had the misfortune to work with one of these people who own a MAsters degree because essentially daddy bought it for him. Every file he opened he corrupted any job he did had to be redone. He lasted less than a year in the job, so parents aren't doing their children any favors and neither are the universities that take the student's side no matter what. Working with that individual made me glad I never wasted money on college. Every one of those that gets hired and fired makes a degree worth just that much less in the personnel office. Ten years in the military taught me more than he'll ever know and my paycheck is more than sufficient.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Oh, I certainly think the degree has been devalued to the point where it really isn't worth anything anymore (at least the Bachelor degress; grad degress might be a different story). I'm not surprised at all with your experience. I see it in the education field as well. I think it's a major component of why colleges now have to teach mathematics below the calculus level: students aren't getting the mathematics they need in high school because of ineffective teachers who didn't earn their degress.

[mgsmurf.livejournal.com]

I teach a hard class and am glad I have the admin where I teach back up the dept and instructors in it. Our pass ratios average from 33% to 50% depending on class and setion. The students that get pass those anatomy & physiology classes, even if eventually, are better students and go on to do better in nursing classes.

The whining we hear however is fairly constant. Luckily I have a few more weeks for it to start.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

This is why I want to stay at Oneonta at all costs: because the department and administration has (so far) backed me up completely regarding grades and students and such.

But the whining . . . Geesh!

[mgsmurf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figure that I'm going to miss this place when Jedi transfers and I have to move on.

The first rounds of tests are in the next few weeks. Sure the whining will increase after that. :rolls eyes:

[shanrina.livejournal.com]

I have an odd question for you, because I'm wondering if these aren't to some extent part (though by no means all or even close to all; I've been stunned by members of my generation too often to count and I think there is a broad generational/cultural shift) of the problem. What do you think of General Education Requirements, or whatever they're called where you teach? Has the theory on them changed over the past 15 years? I understand the theory behind them, but I wonder if removing the students who are only there because GERs force them to be there would get rid of some of the problems and allow the instructors to focus on the students who really do want to be there.

I'm not a professor yet, though, so I definitely don't have all the facts. I'm just speaking from my experiences and the experiences of other people I knew while I was in college, and I'm curious about what it's like from the other side (especially since I hope to be there myself at some point :) ).

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Ok, I personally don't agree with the gen ed requirements in general. I know that I hated them when I was going to school. I understand the idea behind them, but why can't we do this at the high school level? I also think the gen ed requirements at some school has gotten out of hand, to the point where you don't do much in your major until your third year because you've got so many gen ed to finish before that.

As for it being a factor in the problem, I'd agree. The courses we have the most issues with are the gen ed courses. And it's the students that are taking those courses strictly for gen ed that cause the problems, again in general. (We get students who are taking classes as a prerequisite for a higher level class complaining and wheedling as well, but not as often.)

I personally wouldn't mind removing a significant portion of the gen ed requirements, but I know that is unlikely to happen any time soon.

[shanrina.livejournal.com]

I'd support keeping some kind of writing requirement (because a lot of kids aren't getting what they need in high school, although I think they should be) and some sort of math requirement. The history-lover in me is screaming to include history in that list because it gives people the ability to better understand what's going on in the world today, but much as it guts me to say it I think we could probably get rid of specific history requirements. Ditto with science, except science was the only subject I ever hated with a passion so saying it isn't such a wrench. ;)

I didn't have too much to do in the way of gen ed requirements because my high school was an AP haven and I was technically considered a second-semester junior in my first semester as a freshman, but I know my friends had to do a lot. And the gen ed requirements I did have to take were wastes of time; my high school also had a science magnet that let non-magnet students into a lot of their classes, so I took a lot of science in high school and yet I got stuck fulfilling my biology requirement with the equivalent of Biology 101, all of which I'd had before. If you can barely make yourself get out of bed even on your good days, then which classes are you going to choose to go to, the ones that you're passionately interested in or the ones you're only taking because the administration is making you?

But at least I'm not just seeing this through my own bitter experiences, since the gen ed requirements (plus the fact that I was clinically depressed when I took them and didn't know it) are what pulled my GPA down to the point where a couple of the grad schools I've been looking at will reject me based on my GPA alone. But that's a whine for another day, and for another journal (mine).

[the-red-i.livejournal.com]

Personally, I didn't mind most of the gen eds at SUCO (with the exception of French - I seem to not have the mind for learning more than one language) as I was able to choose subjects that did interest me. However I do see your point about students simply taking classes because they want to. At one point I managed to inadvertently "trick" one geology professor and the grad student who taught the lab for Geology 101, into thinking I was a geology major, simply because I actually cared about the course -- I was actually at that point in time a Mass Communications major.

[windsong5.livejournal.com]

This has been a fascinating discussion. I think a lot of the problem stems from the culture of entitlement we're living in. It seems as though (in general) much of the parental responsibility for their child's education has been shifted onto the school system's shoulders. And if the parents aren't shouldering that responsibility, their kids are not going to be likely to either. They learn from example. So many work so hard to pass the blame around instead of taking responsibility for their decisions, their bodies, and their actions.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Entitlement is certainly a huge factor in this issue. That's where the basic complaint from the students is stemming from anyone, IMO.

[mastadge.livejournal.com]

Dr. Jean M. Twenge has published a couple books on the entitlement problem that may be worth checking out if you're interested in the phenomenon. There's no shortage of literature on the subject, but these are where I started.

Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled—and More Miserable Than Ever Before (2006)

The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement (2009)

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Oooo . . . references!

[libwitch.livejournal.com]

My favorite attempt I had was with a student who tried to get me to change their grade with the plea of "but I will loose my aid if I dont pass this class." (I told them I had no for a variety of reasons, including that they didnt do most of the work, and being it was a 2 credit course, and grades are weighted based on credits, this meant they were doing badly in other courses, too...)

Then they called and told me that a college adviser told them to tell me to give them an incomplete and then change the grade BACK to the original grade after the next semester started, thus ensuring their aid would be given.

I pointed out this fellow employee had (allegedly) just suggested I commit both an unethical act AND federal fraud, and if they really wanted me to do it, I wanted a hand signed note from the adviser, on department stationary, advising me what to do.

I oddly never heard back from the student again.

I was boggled that a student would suggest such a thing, and I often wonder if a parent hatched the plan and suggested it to the student. I know damn well that none of the advisers from H***** College advising would suggest it; and I given the students past inability to think of anything more complex then a oneword google search, I doubt it was their idea to do it.

[jpsorrow.livejournal.com]

Ah, the "lose my funding" argument. My response is generally the same: You should have thought of that within the first week of the semester and tried harder to pass.

[libwitch.livejournal.com]

I asked him why he wasn't thinking of when I asked him numerous times throughout the semester where his work was, or wrote a "failing" notice to his adviser at mid-terms. I normally don't chase after students, but he was a first year EOP student, and I was trying a bit harder then usual with him.

[keireland.livejournal.com]

...know what bill was passed in the last 15 years?
"No child left behind"
Schools are babysitting services now because of this. Teachers are stuck trying to teach to the kids who don't want to learn while the smart kids get to fool around in class and the ones who don't want to learn get to ignore the teacher.

[unpissenlit.livejournal.com]

Gah, your previous post made me totally angry at the way the admin handled that situation. I've taken a course where something similar happened. A few students kept thinking that their photography assignments were brilliant when they weren't and so they decided that everything is subjective and so they shouldn't get low marks and therefore didn't need to heed the instructor's critiques. There was a lot of bad-mouthing, attempts to recruit others to their way of thinking and some pretty smug looks at end-of-semester course evals. Luckily(is it down to luck now?), I'm pretty sure it didn't impact too poorly on the grad student who was actually a pretty good and fair instructor.


I have certainly seen a significant rise in "parent involvement" in the student's college career

Oh, so true! Ten years back, when I first started university, I was shocked when I showed up to the course-choosing session. All the other students had one or both parents tagging along. I was starting to wonder if I missed a memo or something. :D Anyhow, despite the university's rule that the students have to pick their own courses, some of those parents tried to fight it, arguing that they needed to be in the room with their kid or that they needed to pick their courses with *coughforcough* them. The advisors won that round which left all the parents outside and a few of students inside looking fairly lost and a bit panicky.