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Norwescon: Friday, Part 2
Apr. 21st, 2006 10:25 pmFriday was just so active I had to split it up into two posts. Here's the second. Most of the panels had been covered already, although there were still 2 more to go. It's now . . . 6pm on that Friday. And I hit the, what, sixth panel? Whatever. *grin*
Sixth panel: Achilles Needs a Heel Ok, this was the "you can't have people that are too powerful (magically) so what do you do to control them?" We started with physical consequences, since that's what most people do. I think because it's the easiest. I do it in Skewed Throne (she gets violently ill if she pushes herself too far). It shifted to other ways to restrict the use of magic, such as limiting the resources--either limiting how much magic is available in certain areas or limiting the items needed to perform the magic if there's some type of ritual involved. I don't have enough of the newt's eyeballs kind of thing. There doesn't seem to be as much of this in recent fantasy novels. The panel then moved into something a little more interesting, but much harder to do: limiting the magic socially. Katherine Kurtz's books were cited, where magic users are persecuted by the religious leaders. This was a particular type of limitation that I lumped under "circumstances." Magic users under such societal restrictions can't use their magic because of the circumstances they find themselves in--they can't help the person dying by healing them because then they'd be exposed, etc. A much more interesting situation, and requires a much more detailed world. Another limitation that developed from this discussion was a person's own character limiting their use of the magic. It's tied in with societal limitations, and religious beliefs, and just morality in general. A character will not use their magic to kill someone (even if they can) because it's against their moral code. I do this in Skewed Throne to some extent--Varis can't let someone kill someone else, even if that person deserves to die for things they've done, and so intervenes and stops it (and later regrets her actions). Not quite what was discussed, but the idea of their character dictating their use of their magic is there. A few other things mentioned: magic limited because the consequences of its use are too high (it will destroy the entire forest or castle or whatever); gods (if the magic involves the favor of the gods, you're limited because the gods have to grant you the power themselves; if you piss them off . . .); blood sacrifice (you can only cut yourself and bleed yourself so many times, etc). There was a sidelight dealing with whether or not immortality could be done, but I don't think much got resolved here.
In the end, it broke down to a few ideas: Rules must be established and can never be broken, even if you really, really need to break them in a later sequel. If you set up the rules right (like Asimov's Three Rules for robots), you'll have plenty of space to maneuver without actually violating your own rules. And there were really only two types of stories: the one where a person has little power at the beginning and grows into their power; or the reverse, they're powerful at the beginning and something happens and they find themselves powerless and so must find new strengths they didn't know they'd possessed before.
I then had a small break . . . meaning I didn't have a panel. I did however have a meeting with my editor. A good meeting. She reassured me that the revisions she'd read of Cracked Throne so far were good. Nothing new to add or ask about or fix. Great relief on my part. We then discussed . . . next projects. What comes after the throne books? I gave her my low-down on 11 other books (3 trilogies and a duology). We eliminated one trilogy because it wasn't a good project to do right after the throne books--too close. We needed to do something removed from Amenkor to establish that I'm not a one-city wonder (I call this the Shannara syndrome). I want people to want MY books, not my next Amenkor book (or throne book or whatever). The other 2 trilogies are also connected, but only in history, so of the two we decided that the one would be better as the "first" trilogy, with the other coming sometime later. And the duology is a high-concept book that would require me to be an excellent writer . . . and I'm not that yet. My editor liked the idea alot, and we talked about it quite a bit, but I don't feel like I could pull it off as a writer yet. So it came down to one trilogy as the obvious next book after the throne books. It's good to know that DAW is already thinking beyond this trilogy to the next. No negotiations yet, or contracts obviously, but the feeling is good that there will be something after the throne books.
I then realized that I was late for the 9pm panel (it was a good talk with my editor; and you don't tell your editor you have to go to a panel if you're talking about future book contracts). I rushed down to the panel, the last panel of the day:
Final panel on Friday: Sweat and Blisters I apologized for coming late, said I was talking to my editor and didn't want to interrupt to say I had to go talk about sweat and blisters, and then say back a while to catch up as everyone else talked. This panel had Lois McMaster Bujold on it. She sat next to me. The main question was how gritty should your novel be? Do you talk about the sweat, the blisters, the gnats and snidgens that bite and itch? In the end, it came down to whether or not it would affect the character or plot. If it was integral to those two things, then it should be included. If not, then you didn't need it. There is such a thing as adding "color" to the novel, but even then what you're really doing is adding "color" so that you can show something about character or plot. You talk about bug bites if you need a reason for the character to be irritated and perhaps easily goaded into a fight they wouldn't normally get into. Or they're already irritated and the bug bites push them over the edge. Bathroom breaks aren't necessary unless someone goes on one . . . and doesn't come back. And the one I used in Skewed Throne: sometimes the grit becomes a character in and off itself, one that the character interacts with, so that both change (man vs nature, meaning character vs setting). In the Skewed Throne, Varis is interacting constantly in the first half of the book with the Dredge, with its darkness and depression and grime. It's affecting her character, determines her actions, and so it was necessary to develope it as a character in and of itself.
If the grit doesn't satisfy something involving character or plot development, then it wasn't necessary. It falls into the category that everything in a book (scenes, setting, character, plot) should serve TWO purposes at least, not just one. A biting bug is great for setting . . . but it should do something else as well (irritate the character, for instance, so they do something abnormal).
And that ended the day of work for the con. After this, I put out more magnets, checked out a few parties, but didn't stay up late because . . . I'd had a full day. I was tired, alright! I checked to make sure I was ready for all the fun stuff the next day, read a little, and then crashed. I have to say, the hotel (a Doubletree) was excellent. Great beds, everything readily available, easy to find, easy to program (alarm). There was a clothesline in the bathtub.
Revision update: I managed to reread chapter 10 today (and damn! there were alot of typos in the new stuff I'd written before the con) and fix that up. It's now a final version. I also go chapter 11 done. I had to add one new scene, but only a few pages long, that I think added alot to the novel, made it more . . . realistic. As I said in an earlier post, I needed more starvation, so now I've got it. At least more visual starvation. Before it was just mentioned. This made it real, hopefully more personal. People might not be comfortable with the scene I added . . . which is fine, because hopefully that means the reader is thinking and reacting, rather than just reading. But I didn't just add it for that. I needed a reason (a more visceral reason) for Varis to react as she does later on in that chapter. This gave her that reason. Other than that, the rest of the chapter was just changing minor things to fit previous changes.
Which means there's only 2 chapters left . . . but really only one, because it's just one big long chapter that would have driven readers nuts (my chapters aren't short as it is), so when a natural break appeared, I cut the chapter in two. It works structurally (that whole wave and/or rollercoaster ride thing). Some "serious" changes to make in these last 2 chapters though. Nothing like adding entire new scenes, but not minor little tweaky things either. I'm going to have to read slow and make certain everything I changed before this is consistent, because of course this is where everything all comes together . . . or explodes (as in goes to hell) as the case may be. LOTS of stuff happening, very, very fast.
I have added over 50 pages to the manuscript. I'm hoping this isn't a problem (they've already got a price out for the book, without a page count yet). But I think the book is infinitely better. Nothing was really changed, but the stuff I added really fleshed it out, made it more exciting and deep. I hope the readers feel the same way when it comes out.
Sixth panel: Achilles Needs a Heel Ok, this was the "you can't have people that are too powerful (magically) so what do you do to control them?" We started with physical consequences, since that's what most people do. I think because it's the easiest. I do it in Skewed Throne (she gets violently ill if she pushes herself too far). It shifted to other ways to restrict the use of magic, such as limiting the resources--either limiting how much magic is available in certain areas or limiting the items needed to perform the magic if there's some type of ritual involved. I don't have enough of the newt's eyeballs kind of thing. There doesn't seem to be as much of this in recent fantasy novels. The panel then moved into something a little more interesting, but much harder to do: limiting the magic socially. Katherine Kurtz's books were cited, where magic users are persecuted by the religious leaders. This was a particular type of limitation that I lumped under "circumstances." Magic users under such societal restrictions can't use their magic because of the circumstances they find themselves in--they can't help the person dying by healing them because then they'd be exposed, etc. A much more interesting situation, and requires a much more detailed world. Another limitation that developed from this discussion was a person's own character limiting their use of the magic. It's tied in with societal limitations, and religious beliefs, and just morality in general. A character will not use their magic to kill someone (even if they can) because it's against their moral code. I do this in Skewed Throne to some extent--Varis can't let someone kill someone else, even if that person deserves to die for things they've done, and so intervenes and stops it (and later regrets her actions). Not quite what was discussed, but the idea of their character dictating their use of their magic is there. A few other things mentioned: magic limited because the consequences of its use are too high (it will destroy the entire forest or castle or whatever); gods (if the magic involves the favor of the gods, you're limited because the gods have to grant you the power themselves; if you piss them off . . .); blood sacrifice (you can only cut yourself and bleed yourself so many times, etc). There was a sidelight dealing with whether or not immortality could be done, but I don't think much got resolved here.
In the end, it broke down to a few ideas: Rules must be established and can never be broken, even if you really, really need to break them in a later sequel. If you set up the rules right (like Asimov's Three Rules for robots), you'll have plenty of space to maneuver without actually violating your own rules. And there were really only two types of stories: the one where a person has little power at the beginning and grows into their power; or the reverse, they're powerful at the beginning and something happens and they find themselves powerless and so must find new strengths they didn't know they'd possessed before.
I then had a small break . . . meaning I didn't have a panel. I did however have a meeting with my editor. A good meeting. She reassured me that the revisions she'd read of Cracked Throne so far were good. Nothing new to add or ask about or fix. Great relief on my part. We then discussed . . . next projects. What comes after the throne books? I gave her my low-down on 11 other books (3 trilogies and a duology). We eliminated one trilogy because it wasn't a good project to do right after the throne books--too close. We needed to do something removed from Amenkor to establish that I'm not a one-city wonder (I call this the Shannara syndrome). I want people to want MY books, not my next Amenkor book (or throne book or whatever). The other 2 trilogies are also connected, but only in history, so of the two we decided that the one would be better as the "first" trilogy, with the other coming sometime later. And the duology is a high-concept book that would require me to be an excellent writer . . . and I'm not that yet. My editor liked the idea alot, and we talked about it quite a bit, but I don't feel like I could pull it off as a writer yet. So it came down to one trilogy as the obvious next book after the throne books. It's good to know that DAW is already thinking beyond this trilogy to the next. No negotiations yet, or contracts obviously, but the feeling is good that there will be something after the throne books.
I then realized that I was late for the 9pm panel (it was a good talk with my editor; and you don't tell your editor you have to go to a panel if you're talking about future book contracts). I rushed down to the panel, the last panel of the day:
Final panel on Friday: Sweat and Blisters I apologized for coming late, said I was talking to my editor and didn't want to interrupt to say I had to go talk about sweat and blisters, and then say back a while to catch up as everyone else talked. This panel had Lois McMaster Bujold on it. She sat next to me. The main question was how gritty should your novel be? Do you talk about the sweat, the blisters, the gnats and snidgens that bite and itch? In the end, it came down to whether or not it would affect the character or plot. If it was integral to those two things, then it should be included. If not, then you didn't need it. There is such a thing as adding "color" to the novel, but even then what you're really doing is adding "color" so that you can show something about character or plot. You talk about bug bites if you need a reason for the character to be irritated and perhaps easily goaded into a fight they wouldn't normally get into. Or they're already irritated and the bug bites push them over the edge. Bathroom breaks aren't necessary unless someone goes on one . . . and doesn't come back. And the one I used in Skewed Throne: sometimes the grit becomes a character in and off itself, one that the character interacts with, so that both change (man vs nature, meaning character vs setting). In the Skewed Throne, Varis is interacting constantly in the first half of the book with the Dredge, with its darkness and depression and grime. It's affecting her character, determines her actions, and so it was necessary to develope it as a character in and of itself.
If the grit doesn't satisfy something involving character or plot development, then it wasn't necessary. It falls into the category that everything in a book (scenes, setting, character, plot) should serve TWO purposes at least, not just one. A biting bug is great for setting . . . but it should do something else as well (irritate the character, for instance, so they do something abnormal).
And that ended the day of work for the con. After this, I put out more magnets, checked out a few parties, but didn't stay up late because . . . I'd had a full day. I was tired, alright! I checked to make sure I was ready for all the fun stuff the next day, read a little, and then crashed. I have to say, the hotel (a Doubletree) was excellent. Great beds, everything readily available, easy to find, easy to program (alarm). There was a clothesline in the bathtub.
Revision update: I managed to reread chapter 10 today (and damn! there were alot of typos in the new stuff I'd written before the con) and fix that up. It's now a final version. I also go chapter 11 done. I had to add one new scene, but only a few pages long, that I think added alot to the novel, made it more . . . realistic. As I said in an earlier post, I needed more starvation, so now I've got it. At least more visual starvation. Before it was just mentioned. This made it real, hopefully more personal. People might not be comfortable with the scene I added . . . which is fine, because hopefully that means the reader is thinking and reacting, rather than just reading. But I didn't just add it for that. I needed a reason (a more visceral reason) for Varis to react as she does later on in that chapter. This gave her that reason. Other than that, the rest of the chapter was just changing minor things to fit previous changes.
Which means there's only 2 chapters left . . . but really only one, because it's just one big long chapter that would have driven readers nuts (my chapters aren't short as it is), so when a natural break appeared, I cut the chapter in two. It works structurally (that whole wave and/or rollercoaster ride thing). Some "serious" changes to make in these last 2 chapters though. Nothing like adding entire new scenes, but not minor little tweaky things either. I'm going to have to read slow and make certain everything I changed before this is consistent, because of course this is where everything all comes together . . . or explodes (as in goes to hell) as the case may be. LOTS of stuff happening, very, very fast.
I have added over 50 pages to the manuscript. I'm hoping this isn't a problem (they've already got a price out for the book, without a page count yet). But I think the book is infinitely better. Nothing was really changed, but the stuff I added really fleshed it out, made it more exciting and deep. I hope the readers feel the same way when it comes out.
