But first, an update on the grading of the math exams: The Calc 1 students did rather well actually. Much better than they'd led me to believe by NOT leaving the room until the exam was over. (I had a few people leave earlier, but not many, which usually spells DOOOOOOOOM!!!!) However, the Calc 2 students . . . are doing horrible. Now, if they were doing badly on the problems that were a little harder, then fine, that's to be expected. But they're screwing up the easiest problems on the exam. Which means that they either didn't study, didn't do the homework, or both. Because, seriously, some of the questions they're missing were supposed to be blatant giveaway points. Still not finished grading those, but the signs are not good at the moment.
Also, I've posted the book discussion for Barbara Campbell's new book Foxfire over at the
dawbooks community. Go forth and comment!
And now the writing discussion. "Exploring the Other--Gay Themes in SF and F" was one of the panels I was on at Boskone with Katherine Macdonald and Elise Matthesen. A fourth panelist was added, but I only have her first name: Linda. I figured I'd mention some of the issues that came up during the panel, along with my own thoughts. Obviously this is not a complete rehash of the panel; it's skewed heavily toward my own thoughts. Plus, it's based on rather skimpy notes I took during the panel. It was a great panel, with many interesting thoughts brought up, some of which we didn't have time to really discuss much.
So, first of all, I do have some gay characters in my novels, but if you aren't really paying attention you won't necessarily notice them. It's not that I'm trying to "hide" them in any way--in fact, this was one of the main points of discussion during the panel--they were definitely there. I just never pulled out the neon signs blazing "GAY CHARACTER! LOOK HERE!" I had the characters dealing with each other and those around them as they would in any ordinary everyday situation. The fact that they were gay never became an issue for the plot. In fact, the only part of their relationship that became an issue was the fact that they had a relationship. They ended up on opposite sides of an argument, which caused friction in the group itself, but obviously played a major role in their personal lives. This friction was used to heighten the tension of the book . . . but that friction didn't have anything to do with the fact that they were gay.
So, basically, what I did was have gay characters as part of the world, an accepted part of the world, and I never made any issue out of it in any way. Because the people in the world wouldn't have an issue with it. It's an accepted part of the world, so never once was it mentioned that they were gay.
Which of course brought up the question of why they were gay if it wasn't really part of the plot. The counter question is, why should you only bring up gayness when it's essential to the plot? I don't think you should restrict any sense of "other"--whether it be gayness or skin color or sex or culture or whatever--to only instances where that otherness is an essential part of the plot. I want my world to be as complex and interesting as possible, and one of the things that makes the world that complex is having many different people with different cultures and experiences all together in one large melting pot. This is especially true in a trade/port city like Venitte or Amenkor (from my books). Not so much in a small tribal community in the remote forests of Booshakalaka or something. (There, the "other" would probably be a significant plot point.)
In any case, there was lots of discussion about "sneaking" the gays into books and such, since after my initial comments it seemed like everyone had thought I'd snuck gays unsuspecting into my own books. Which wasn't the case at all. My whole point was that the gays were there, in plain view, because they were part of the culture. Other writers have handled the gay issue in their books, but it's always a reflection of the culture of the world. Kate Elliott in her Jaran books had the gay characters (if they were "out") banished from the group, and the exiled characters (not all of them gay, but exiled for other reasons) had formed their own group roaming the plains, for example. What it all boils down to is that, as with everything in a fantasy or SF novel, if you're going to introduce anything related to "other", then you have to figure out how your particular culture handles the "other".
And how the culture handles the "other" doesn't have to be politically correct, especially in SF and F. It's perfectly valid to have a culture that hates the "other" (whether it be gayness or not), as long as the characters have to deal with it realistically. Admittedly, if the culture hates the "other" in the book, then more than likely that's going to play into the plot and will become a major plot point. Evil gay characters do exist (I've dated a few *grin*), and there is a "dark side of the rainbow" as someone in the audience shouted out. (I pointed out that would be a great title for a book.)
So is it necessary to use the "other" in a book? Obviously no. I think there's room for pretty much the entire spectrum--having no mention of gayness all the way up to everyone's a flaming gay. How much you bring the "other" into a book depends entirely on your plot and your culture. In my books, I introduced the characters to flesh out the world more, even though it wasn't necessary for the plot. In other novels, the "other" becomes integral to the plot and so more must be made of the "other" in that book.
And keep in mind, the "other" can be many things besides being gay.
Another interesting question that arose during the panel was: Is it cheating to reveal a character is gay? This came in response to things like J.K. Rowling announcing after the books were all finished that Dumbledore was gay. Was that necessary? Was she cheating by NOT mentioning it in the books, or a betrayal of some kind? Was it necessary for me to include that my characters were gay in the book? Why couldn't I just write it so that the characters were opposing opinions on the council sessions (so keep the tension there) and just leave out their own personal relationship? Well, for my own story, I'd say that it would have been cheating NOT to reveal the personal relationship. That personal relationship adds a depth to the arguments in the council that I feel is necessary to the tension. There are now undercurrents to the council sessions that wouldn't be there without the knowledge of the personal relationship.
As for Dumbledore . . . I don't think J.K. Rowling needed to reveal that at all. It wasn't "bad" that she revealed it after the books were published . . . but it wasn't necessary. In her case, she didn't use the knowledge to expand the depth of her books as published. It wasn't needed for the plot, and she chose not to use it to give the world that little bit of extra depth, so it wasn't necessary in the end. Some say that she was wrong not to reveal this fact during the course of the books; others say she did in such a subtle way most didn't pick up on it; others say it was a betrayal of the gay culture. I say . . . did you enjoy the books? If you did, then how can revealing that Dumbledore is gay after the fact change your enjoyment? It shouldn't, in my opinion. The reaction should be more along the lines of, "Oh, interesting." *shrug* And life moves on. And I don't personally feel betrayed that she didn't reveal it during the course of the books either, because I enjoyed the books as they were written.
Notice that the panel didn't seem to talk much about gay themes. It ended up being more about why you might include gay characters in your books, and to what extent should you make an issue of the fact that some characters are gay, and whether or not it was necessary to have gay characters at all. A writely discussion. I think that was a much more interesting discussion than gay themes, simply because the only real gay theme I can think of is the whole idea of "other" in the first place. Being different than the majority and how the world and the characters handles the difference either in themselves or in others. That's the theme. And nowhere in that theme does it require "being gay". You could craft the same story around characters having blue skin, or being the only human on an alien world, etc.
But that's a complete topic in and of itself. *grin*
So those are some of the thoughts and ideas that popped up on that panel at Boskone. What about all of you guys? Any thoughts on the writely aspects of including (or not) gay characters in writing? Or expanding it to include all of the other possibilities of "other"?
Also, I've posted the book discussion for Barbara Campbell's new book Foxfire over at the
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And now the writing discussion. "Exploring the Other--Gay Themes in SF and F" was one of the panels I was on at Boskone with Katherine Macdonald and Elise Matthesen. A fourth panelist was added, but I only have her first name: Linda. I figured I'd mention some of the issues that came up during the panel, along with my own thoughts. Obviously this is not a complete rehash of the panel; it's skewed heavily toward my own thoughts. Plus, it's based on rather skimpy notes I took during the panel. It was a great panel, with many interesting thoughts brought up, some of which we didn't have time to really discuss much.
So, first of all, I do have some gay characters in my novels, but if you aren't really paying attention you won't necessarily notice them. It's not that I'm trying to "hide" them in any way--in fact, this was one of the main points of discussion during the panel--they were definitely there. I just never pulled out the neon signs blazing "GAY CHARACTER! LOOK HERE!" I had the characters dealing with each other and those around them as they would in any ordinary everyday situation. The fact that they were gay never became an issue for the plot. In fact, the only part of their relationship that became an issue was the fact that they had a relationship. They ended up on opposite sides of an argument, which caused friction in the group itself, but obviously played a major role in their personal lives. This friction was used to heighten the tension of the book . . . but that friction didn't have anything to do with the fact that they were gay.
So, basically, what I did was have gay characters as part of the world, an accepted part of the world, and I never made any issue out of it in any way. Because the people in the world wouldn't have an issue with it. It's an accepted part of the world, so never once was it mentioned that they were gay.
Which of course brought up the question of why they were gay if it wasn't really part of the plot. The counter question is, why should you only bring up gayness when it's essential to the plot? I don't think you should restrict any sense of "other"--whether it be gayness or skin color or sex or culture or whatever--to only instances where that otherness is an essential part of the plot. I want my world to be as complex and interesting as possible, and one of the things that makes the world that complex is having many different people with different cultures and experiences all together in one large melting pot. This is especially true in a trade/port city like Venitte or Amenkor (from my books). Not so much in a small tribal community in the remote forests of Booshakalaka or something. (There, the "other" would probably be a significant plot point.)
In any case, there was lots of discussion about "sneaking" the gays into books and such, since after my initial comments it seemed like everyone had thought I'd snuck gays unsuspecting into my own books. Which wasn't the case at all. My whole point was that the gays were there, in plain view, because they were part of the culture. Other writers have handled the gay issue in their books, but it's always a reflection of the culture of the world. Kate Elliott in her Jaran books had the gay characters (if they were "out") banished from the group, and the exiled characters (not all of them gay, but exiled for other reasons) had formed their own group roaming the plains, for example. What it all boils down to is that, as with everything in a fantasy or SF novel, if you're going to introduce anything related to "other", then you have to figure out how your particular culture handles the "other".
And how the culture handles the "other" doesn't have to be politically correct, especially in SF and F. It's perfectly valid to have a culture that hates the "other" (whether it be gayness or not), as long as the characters have to deal with it realistically. Admittedly, if the culture hates the "other" in the book, then more than likely that's going to play into the plot and will become a major plot point. Evil gay characters do exist (I've dated a few *grin*), and there is a "dark side of the rainbow" as someone in the audience shouted out. (I pointed out that would be a great title for a book.)
So is it necessary to use the "other" in a book? Obviously no. I think there's room for pretty much the entire spectrum--having no mention of gayness all the way up to everyone's a flaming gay. How much you bring the "other" into a book depends entirely on your plot and your culture. In my books, I introduced the characters to flesh out the world more, even though it wasn't necessary for the plot. In other novels, the "other" becomes integral to the plot and so more must be made of the "other" in that book.
And keep in mind, the "other" can be many things besides being gay.
Another interesting question that arose during the panel was: Is it cheating to reveal a character is gay? This came in response to things like J.K. Rowling announcing after the books were all finished that Dumbledore was gay. Was that necessary? Was she cheating by NOT mentioning it in the books, or a betrayal of some kind? Was it necessary for me to include that my characters were gay in the book? Why couldn't I just write it so that the characters were opposing opinions on the council sessions (so keep the tension there) and just leave out their own personal relationship? Well, for my own story, I'd say that it would have been cheating NOT to reveal the personal relationship. That personal relationship adds a depth to the arguments in the council that I feel is necessary to the tension. There are now undercurrents to the council sessions that wouldn't be there without the knowledge of the personal relationship.
As for Dumbledore . . . I don't think J.K. Rowling needed to reveal that at all. It wasn't "bad" that she revealed it after the books were published . . . but it wasn't necessary. In her case, she didn't use the knowledge to expand the depth of her books as published. It wasn't needed for the plot, and she chose not to use it to give the world that little bit of extra depth, so it wasn't necessary in the end. Some say that she was wrong not to reveal this fact during the course of the books; others say she did in such a subtle way most didn't pick up on it; others say it was a betrayal of the gay culture. I say . . . did you enjoy the books? If you did, then how can revealing that Dumbledore is gay after the fact change your enjoyment? It shouldn't, in my opinion. The reaction should be more along the lines of, "Oh, interesting." *shrug* And life moves on. And I don't personally feel betrayed that she didn't reveal it during the course of the books either, because I enjoyed the books as they were written.
Notice that the panel didn't seem to talk much about gay themes. It ended up being more about why you might include gay characters in your books, and to what extent should you make an issue of the fact that some characters are gay, and whether or not it was necessary to have gay characters at all. A writely discussion. I think that was a much more interesting discussion than gay themes, simply because the only real gay theme I can think of is the whole idea of "other" in the first place. Being different than the majority and how the world and the characters handles the difference either in themselves or in others. That's the theme. And nowhere in that theme does it require "being gay". You could craft the same story around characters having blue skin, or being the only human on an alien world, etc.
But that's a complete topic in and of itself. *grin*
So those are some of the thoughts and ideas that popped up on that panel at Boskone. What about all of you guys? Any thoughts on the writely aspects of including (or not) gay characters in writing? Or expanding it to include all of the other possibilities of "other"?